An Audit Nightmare Turned Artist Victory: An Interview With Susan Crile

This article originally appeared in ArtFCity on 12/15/16. Updated 7/22/2021.

American businesses sometimes lose money. Those losses actually create a tax shelter for other income. While the tax code explicitly provides this incentive for businesses – to encourage investment for growth, and to allow for unpredictable events – losses that go on for too long tend to draw scrutiny from the IRS.

If your arts practice loses money for more than a couple years, they may question the legitimacy of the business – specifically, the profit motive. Typically, they reclassify such a business as a hobby, and disallow the artist from expensing deductions past the point of their income from the activity. That’s bad news for any artist, but it was a near nightmare scenario for artist Susan Crile.

Crile spent eight years in tax court (from 2005-2013), defending her right to take losses. She is an accomplished artist by any measure. She has had over 50 one-person exhibitions, and her work is represented in dozens of museum collections, including the Guggenheim, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Hirshhorn, and the Cleveland Museum of Art. She is also a tenured professor of art at Hunter College.

However, despite this decades-long professional history, the IRS threatened to reclassify her art as a hobby, disallow her losses, and force her to pay over $200,000. In the end, Susan Crile won on the question of being considered a professional artist, and the precedent that her case set is that her day job was clearly judged to be a separate profession—not the reason for her art. But the judge did not rule on the allowability of her large deductions—that piece was sent to a settlement, and not all of the deductions were allowed.

In this interview, we discuss how she proved her case, what it took, and what she recommends for artists in a similar position.

Hannah Cole: First I wanted to thank you for putting yourself through what you have. You set a precedent that really helps other artists.

Susan Crile: I’m still recovering from it! I was very lucky that the law firm Cravath Swaine & Moore took it on pro bono, but my accounting was not taken care of pro bono. So I’m still getting my feet back from that.

HC: How did the audit start? I assume you got a letter in the mail and I want to know what went through your mind. (PSA to readers: an IRS audit always begins with a notice in the mail. If you receive a phone call announcing an audit, it is a scam.)

SC: Well I’ve been audited several times over the years and I hadn’t had any problem. I never had to pay anything. But this time it seemed as if there was no reason for it and my accountant [and I] both thought that we should question it. So, it was going in a normal way up the audit chain and suddenly something changed. No one’s been able to figure out what happened. By the time it got to the appeals they had decided that I was a hobbyist, that we had to pay this huge amount [in back taxes, penalties and interest] and had added seven years to the audit.

Early on it wasn’t a huge amount disputed—about ten thousand [dollars] in deductions.

HC: Wow. For the readers’ information, both hobbyists and professional artists must report all income, but in the years of her audit, a hobbyist could deduct expenses up to the amount of their hobby income. A professional artist, in business to make a profit, could then and can still claim expenses beyond income. In other words, they can claim a loss. Please note: in 2018, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act changed the rules for hobbyists, so that as of 2018, hobbyists may no longer deduct any expenses at all. The rules for business deductions remain unchanged.

SC: So I think there were two things that made them decide to [expand and shift the focus of the audit]  First, I think that they were probably looking for someone to use as a test case.

HC: That’s my suspicion as well.

SC: Second, my deductions were high and my income was very variable year-to-year. I also had a full-time teaching job. There were a lot of variables in there, and if they could get me, they could get a lot of people, all of whom would be omitted from taking deductions.

HC: This would allow the IRS to classify all similarly situated artists as “hobbyists,” and therefore not entitled to take a loss.

SC:  Yes. The IRS kept changing why they were taking this route. By the time the law firm Cravath Swaine and Moore came in, they were not interested in settling at all. The first thing Cravath Swaine and Moore did was send them about a thousand pages of backup. This was five years before the judgement.

HC: That’s amazing.

SC: So the audit started in 2004 or 5 went to trial in 2013 maybe ended in 2014.

HC: So how were you feeling when all of this went down? It doesn’t sound like the initial audit letter was that much of a shock.

SC: No. For the first year there was nothing about it that was really terrible. But when they started adding on years and the numbers of what I was going to owe started getting revised up I got scared. They weren’t going to allow me any deductions at all [beyond SC’s art income]. Then I would have been subject to The Alternative Minimum Tax.

HC: This tax was intended to ensure that high-income taxpayers, who may be savvy about maximizing deductions, pay at least a certain amount of tax.

SC: It began to look really onerous. At that point I went to Cravath Swaine and Moore. I knew one of the partners very well.They decided to take it on pro bono. It was just luck that I was able to be in that position.

HC: Wow, that’s amazing. I’m curious to know what you learned going through that experience?

SC: I don’t think anyone should get tangled up with the IRS if they don’t have to, for one. You get mauled. And unless you’ve got really really good backing and coverage, it’s really hard.

HC: Can you explain what backing and coverage means? It seems useful to mention here that the IRS uses nine points to determine whether a person incurring losses in their business has a profit motive. The profit motive is the key factor that determines the legitimacy of a business in the eyes of the IRS, and having one entitles the business to incur losses. Otherwise, the activity is deemed a hobby, and losses are disallowed.

SC: You have to have a really good accountant who knows and understands the law. The nine points are not just about demonstrating a profit alone. It is a preponderance of points and a lot of them relate to how you run your business.

HC: Right, they are given different amounts of weight in the judgement. Like the fact that you hired a professional bookkeeper, an accountant, and someone to digitize your inventory for a few big years, all play into the point about the expertise of the taxpayer and his advisors. You wouldn’t hire those people if you were a hobbyist.

SC: Yes. You have to have records and proof. Letters you’ve written trying to contact curators and museums, or trying to get gallery representation. I had to go through my date book and annotate everything I took for a deduction and why it was valid. If people get into the habit of good record-keeping and note-taking, they’re probably not going to have a problem.

Fortunately, I had decided early on that I wanted to know where my artwork was, so I have kept track of it. A lot of people I know don’t. Even when we went through [it], my sales were a lot more than what they said they were. We only could count those that I have proof of.

HC: That really puts a fine point on it.

SC: It took a huge amount of time out of my life. I mean, having to substantiate every move you’ve made for seven years. That, and I had to basically go through and count the amount of work I’ve made. I had to inventory everything…I had to dig up stuff from storage and boxes of stuff. In terms of figuring out sales, I had to go back forty years on every single thing I had ever done.

HC: Wow. That’s really incredible.

SC: It’s much harder for me, too, because I can’t do everything electronically. I’m older and not absolutely terrific with all the electronic stuff.

HC: It’s interesting that you say that because you are proof that the old-fashioned way is just fine if that works for you.

SC: Did you read the trial? Because they brought in this woman as their expert — Elizabeth von Habsburg, who tried to claim that I had no records because I had not gone electronic with everything.

HC: Right and she was an IRS expert witness, the managing director of Winston Art Group, who was brought in to testify regarding the art market and art appraisal.

SC: A good part of my  work had been digitalized, not just 1980-85.  Most everything from 1980 on has been digitalized, but my work goes back to 1965.

She was trying to say that because I hadn’t gotten everything digitally [catalogued] that I was an amateur. We have these boxes that I had had from the earlier time that had listed on them what I sold and to whom. It was a different form of doing it, but I had it.

I had an appraiser come in and take a look at my work in the country and what I have done here in New York. We came out very well on that because I have things wrapped properly and indicated on the back what the work was, and where it had been shown.

HC: The Hobby Loss Rule says that so long as you make a profit in three out of five years, you are presumed to be in business with an intent to make a profit. If not, you are presumed to be conducting a hobby.

SC: So you’re actually innocent until proven guilty, but they act as though you’re guilty until proven innocent.

HC: It’s a question of onus. When you make a profit in three out of five years, the onus is on the IRS to prove that you don’t have a profit motive. But the issue that arises when you run losses for more than three out of five years is that you are presumed to not have a profit, and you have to prove that you do. So that is written in The Internal Revenue Code.

SC: They act as if you are absolutely wrong, as opposed to acting on the assumption that you can give them evidence that you are not. That was the sense that I got all the way along. That they were cut hard and dry that the law is if you don’t have [profit] three out five years then you are wrong, and you owe us.

HC: An artist running losses is in the position of threading that needle. You have to say here are my losses, but here’s the case law that says that that doesn’t disprove my profit motive.

SC: And I think that most people who come up against the IRS don’t know that. They are intimidated by it.

HC: It’s my experience that sometimes the auditors don’t know what the law actually says, and that the person being audited ends up in the position of having to educate the auditors about the case law.

SC: That’s hard for me to have an opinion about because I left it entirely to my accountant. I didn’t go to the audit. What I heard from my accountant was pretty shocking. At one point one of the auditors said “I have art books on my coffee table and I can’t take them as a deduction, why should she?”

HC: Wow.

SC: I mean, please. Don’t you have accounting books or tax law books? I think one of the real problems is that there’s a lot of cultural envy. In an odd kind of way they feel that we’re getting away with something.

It’s complicated too because so much of what we do in our lives is potentially deductible. That came up in the trial in the final deliberations with the judge who felt that that there had to be some demarcation points. He sent us back to negotiate on what deductions were viable, and what were not. Not that I wasn’t an artist in it for profit, but were all these deductions correct.

HC: Has the settlement part been decided?

SC: That was decided, and it took a year and three months. We only used one year as a model and applied it to the rest. At the onset of this seven years, with penalties and interest, and taking out every single deduction, it could have been over $200,000 that I owed. 

HC: Oh my goodness.

SC: During the negotiations, the IRS examiners offered to give me only 10% of my deductions—as though the trial had never happened! My lawyer was just fantastic. She had the patience of Job, and she just wore them down. And in the end, we got close to 85% of my deductions. It should have been a lot higher but we had to compromise at some point. [The IRS] just did not want to budge an inch on anything. We just let go of certain categories they had problems with.

HC: What about the day job aspect of the trial? Because even in the era of Churchman v Commissioner (who ran loses as an artist for 20 years and won her case) they were trying to prove that if you had a day job the fact that you weren’t living off of your art meant that you didn’t have a true profit motive. But what your trial proved, in my understanding, is that the day job does not invalidate the legitimacy of your arts practice.

SC: That was a huge piece of it. The IRS started with a hobbyist routine and when they found out that I had this massive amount of stuff — that I actually have exhibitions, I have sales, I had excellent reviews, they weren’t willing to back down and say, “ok she is in it as a business to make a profit.” They just switched, and said “okay, the only reason she is showing her work and trying to have it exhibited to keep her job as a professor”. Which is totally ludicrous. I had already been tenured and was a full Professor by 1995. It hard to fire a teacher with that status. That was not a very strong argument for the IRS. The judge wrote that this would invalidate so many areas for people who teach and was explicit in his rejection of this argument.

HC: For sure. I know a lot of artists who are serious professional artists working very hard, but running losses more than the three out of five years.

SC: You are in the position of having to educate your clients.

HC: Yes, I mean it’s one thing to think of an audit in very theoretical-someday-low-possibility terms and be running your practice. But when you realize the kind of thin ice you’re walking on if you’re taking losses, and you realize your entire defense is based on that record keeping, it definitely shores up your resolve to keep it as professionally as you’re able.  Do you think that it was all worth it?

SC: It’s worth it if it helps other people.

HC: Are there any last words that you would want to leave other people in the art world with?

SC: I think we all have to make sure that artists can continue to take deductions [including to the point of losses], because the art world is mimicking the real world – there’s the billionaires and the rest of us. The only way in which we can continue to be able to work is if we are also able to take losses.

DISCLAIMER: True tax advice is a two-way conversation, and your accountant needs to hear your full situation to apply the rules correctly in your case. This post is meant for general information only. Please don’t act on this alone.

Hannah Cole is an artist and Enrolled Agent. She is the founder of Sunlight Tax.

WTF is an NFT?

Why this project, and why now?

Sales of digital art via NFTs are exploding right now, and it's simultaneously a new model for the art world--raising questions about the environment, our relationship to gatekeepers, resale rights and more, and new terrain in the area of money itself.
This feels like rich territory to explore and to shed light on the issues to the Sunlight Tax Community. Also it’s complicated and confusing, and we can help.

Who’s involved?

Hannah Cole: artist, tax expert/educator and Founder of Sunlight Tax.

Aubrey Holland: programmer, woodworker, wearer of dad-hats, Hannah's partner.

You: Your questions will shape this project, and you might get to own one of the NFTs we create.

Some basic info: What is an NFT?

It’s a non-fungible token, which means that as opposed to being interchangeable with any similar token (like a dollar bill) these are unique in the world. That sounds confusing, but I’ll argue that the Mona Lisa is a non-fungible token.

There is exactly one real Mona Lisa and it is owned by the Louvre, but I can put a print of it on my wall and receive many of the same benefits as the owner minus the crucial ability to sell it and the pride (and rights) of ownership.

Here's where you come in. We're building and selling an NFT series to learn about how they work. Your questions will shape this project.

So tell us: what do you want to know about NFTs?

Part 2: NFTs and the Environment

NFTs in the art world operate on blockchains (secure, digital records of transactions that are decentralized, unchangeable and virtually unhackable), primarily one called Ethereum. 

Ethereum is a decentralized currency that exists online. Through a process called mining, computers maintain the currency by solving increasingly complex problems and are rewarded with bits of the currency. The computations required to solve these problems consume a vast amount of energy.

Ethereum alone is currently producing as much carbon as Lebanon, and a single transaction requires enough energy to power the average US household for three days (and Bitcoin is much worse). There is reasonable debate about how much NFTs specifically contribute to this, but it’s bad news regardless.

Fortunately, there are other types of blockchains that use dramatically less energy. Tezos is a proof of stake chain that uses less energy than Ethereum by a factor of two million and supports NFTs. Transactions on Tezos can be compared with swiping your credit card or writing a tweet from a carbon standpoint.

Minting NFTs on Tezos is also much cheaper, costing around $0.25, compared with up to $100 on Ethereum, so getting started with it is much more accessible. And Tezos is just one example, there are many other blockchains that support NFTs, and they are growing.

On the other hand, the art marketplace on these alternative chains is just getting started. Tezos has a platform called hic et nunc, and NFT Showroom also looks promising, but neither is all that approachable or easy to use. We’ll be looking at marketplaces and how to use them in our next post in the series. What questions do you have about NFTs and energy consumption? About the alternatives? About what it will take to get the art world operating on sustainable blockchain platforms?

Thanks to Aubrey Holland for major writing and research of this post.

Nicole Espaillat: A money story of debt, yoga, and buying a house.

Nicole Espaillat

has an art history degree, 10 years of experience working in the art world, and is now a full time yoga instructor who is going back to school for accounting. She is learning to do taxes at Sunlight Tax. Nicole generously agreed to share her personal money story: She went from $100,000 in debt and living on food stamps to owning her own home and getting her money under control. Now she is learning accounting, so that she can teach money skills to people like her.

Hannah: So Nicole, tell us the basics.

My pronouns are she/her, I’m based out of Baltimore, MD for the last four years.  I am working on finishing my degree in accounting--that’s my quarantine “baking bread” project. It’s a long haul project, but I went back to school officially during quarantine. I am an area manager for Core Power Yoga - that is my nine to five. I also teach yoga at a couple mom and pop local studios. I also do bookkeeping for an outspoken artist collective in Baltimore: NomuNomu.

I have been doing art since I was eighteen--my first job was in an art museum. It was the only thing I knew--the dysfunctional world of art. I moved to Baltimore after the Trump election. I was searching for a place that is more authentic. I ended up working at Hamiltonian Artists in DC. That’s half an art Foundation and half gallery--they award grants to ten artists for two years for mid-career/emerging artists after they graduate. They teach how to set up an exhibition , how to make a catalog, all the things. 

I met you because we hired you to give a Taxes for Artists talk at Hamiltonian. Of all the things we did for artists there, this was the one I felt was the most impactful. Everything you were saying--it blew my mind that these are the things you need to succeed in the world--and it feels like a byproduct of this system that makes finances and money difficult to grasp--as if it’s actually on purpose, and people are in the dark. I loved how you broke it down for everyone. I kept seeing all these light bulbs going off for people. I sent you an email after your talk and told you that I wanted to do what you do.

I ended up leaving Hamiltonian Artists to be a full time yoga teacher. At that point, I was able to live off of credit. Up until then, i was making money, and I was able to rack up credit card bills but pay them off. I didn’t feel the full burden of it all until I left my job making good money, and went to yoga, making $300/4400 every two weeks as a yoga teacher. I was making a little more than minimum wage, but my take home pay was about $200 a week. 

I had to get on Medicaid and food stamps. I had to live off the system. I have a degree, I was born in this country, I speak English--all these things are to my advantage. I grew up in a first generation household. We were poor, but we had what we needed. This was the first time in my life I was broke.  I didn’t know how I would eat. I would go to the grocery store and get rice and tuna. That was very very hard. 

I eventually got promoted to be the assistant at the yoga studio. My pay checks went from $350 every two weeks to $600 every two weeks. It was a little more, but even so, I couldn’t do anything. I was trapped. I couldn’t pay the interest on my credit cards. I was rock bottom financially. I was in $35,000-$40,000 of credit card debt. That was due to trying to keep up with the Joneses. Yoga teacher training is cost prohibitive--yoga teachers usually come from privilege. You can’t make that little money and pay that teacher training off.

On these credit cards, the interest was high--I had about five rotating cards. I maxed them out until I couldn’t pay them. Each card was $500-600 month in just interest payments. This didn’t include rent or car, etc. I got some help from my mother, but it was like, “you need to get another job.”

I was in a bad place financially. It took a huge toll on my mental health. I was getting up at 4 am, working all day, teaching all day. Yoga teachers make about $20 per class. I was making $10.75/hour, and this was before taxes were taken out. 

It took a huge toll on every part of my life--I couldn’t see my friends, and any bit of money I had went to pay off these credit cards. What finally shifted things was Covid. For the first time in my life I was able to get assistance on my bills because of relief help. I got into a debt management program. Not debt consolidation. This company literally just takes over your payments. I can’t use them/touch them or open new lines of credit. They are like, “you can’t do this on your own, we are going to do it.” They cut it all off. That was step one--getting the credit card under control. This was just before quarantine. The deal was $800/month in credit card payments. They handled distribution, negotiated all the credit down to like 4% from the 20%. My payment was now $800 per month instead of $3000. 

But I still wasn’t making a lot of money. I was picking up side gigs. I was selling my plasma, taking side gigs, getting two hours of sleep per night. 

Hannah: That sounds exhausting.

Quarantine happened. I was able to negotiate no rent payments. My building was not up to code, so my rent was covered. I was able to catch up with stimulus payments and grants. I wrote myself grants - I took that skill I have from my art world training. I got money for that. In March I got laid off from my job. I was able to collect unemployment. For the first time in a couple years, I was making 3-4 times more than I was making before. That saved my life--making more money.

That changed it all. At the end of the day, the only thing that was going to get me out of the hole was making more money.

I negotiated half a car payment. So I had a car payment of $600, credit card payment of $800, rent payment of $1000, and this is just covering transportation, home and debt. It doesn’t cover my student loan, consolidation loan, nothing. I was negative almost $100,000 in my life in October 2019, making $300 per week. And that’s with a college degree. 

I was talking to my mom like, “how do you get ahead in this country?” The only way I could do it was help. I got help from the government. It caught me back up.

I know that Covid was really hard for a lot of people. But for me that had nothing to my name, getting stimulus, unemployment, and having the companies I owed money to slightly sympathetic to my situation--I was able to slowly slowly catch up. Meanwhile we’re going through this social revolution,  the end of a crazy presidency, George Floyd, those conversations, and in the fitness world, there were conversations about equity issues there. I was able to go back to work for double the pay I had been making. They basically matched unemployment. [Because of conversations about equitable pay in the yoga/fitness industry].

This was a big pay bump--a liveable wage. Now I was getting $1000 per paycheck, up from $300 the year previous. All this debt, the debt management program, I get financial relief--it helped me breathe again. 

 And we have a good friend of the family, who has no kids or grandkids. I call her my fairy godmother. She decided she wanted to buy me a house. She gave me $100,000 to buy a house. I wasn’t allowed to use it to pay off debt, or anything else. I live in Baltimore, where that can buy you a place. I put in an offer on a small lovely condo.

When it rains it pours. With a lot of luck--I was lucky that in my field there was a revolution about pay and compensation.. At the end of last year, I got promoted to be the manager of it all--my company and the region. I now make a bigger salary than I had in DC. I was also able to get grants for going back to school. A lot of things fell into place. After a lot of hard work and suffering, and only with a huge support system.

Hannah: So where are you today?

In October 2015, I had $100,000 in debt. Today, I have $45/50,000 in debt plus the asset of a home. Now that I know what I know, I wish I didn’t have to go through those things. This is why I love Sunlight Tax. So much of what we know about money is programmed subconsciously. Now I can pick up bookkeeping work. That has also helped. My mental health is better. I can feed me and my dog--I can now go to the grocery store and buy what I need.

Hannah: So what do you tell your friends now?

I tell people don’t get into credit card debt. You can maybe make the minimum payment, but when you have a whole college degree of debt on your credit card, you are going to screw yourself over. You are not going to catch up.

I am so over financial institutions. I tell everyone get a credit union at least. I love that they pick up the phone. They have the best interest rates. It’s like a co-op - you have say and control in what they put their money into. That helps a lot.

Living above your means is so tempting, especially when you’re young, and you want to do the same thing your investment banker friends do. It doesn’t help either that I’m from Miami. Everyone there is in so much debt. The average income there is $35,000. They have a fancy car, designer shoes, go out to fancy meals, buy $600 vodka at the club. 

It’s insane how much I had to struggle just to get to this point right here. Still with debt. But hopefully in about a year, that will be gone.

It was all help. I finally got help. You can have universal income, you can have free healthcare. The government just chooses not to.

Any extra money I get goes to my credit cards. Then my student loans.

“Buy in bulk” doesn’t help when you don’t have the money to buy even one roll of toilet paper. It costs you so much money to be poor. A bank can tell you you can’t get a house because you can’t afford the $800 mortgage payment, but they turn around and expect you to pay $1600 in rent. They just don’t value people - if they did, this behavior doesn’t make sense.

Just to exist in the world, there is a cost to live. Just to live in a house. Doing taxes, you see how many deductions and exemptions and credits you can get from owning a house - but only if you can get from this point. No 28 year old is just buying a house.. Especially with a 20% down payment.

I’m frustrated with the way the world is. It has been so hard for me, I can’t even imagine how hard it is for people who don’t speak English, or have all these benefits.

I can’t believe how hard it is to apply for benefits. I nearly gave up because it felt impossible. I had to get signatures from 10 landlords. It was a very demoralizing/dehumanizing experience. You have to tell everyone around you that you’re applying for food stamps. It’s really hard. And I live in an easy state - Florida, I have friends who can’t even get the unemployment they are owed. For people who have never had it hard, they just don’t get it. If I had kids - I don’t even know what I would do.

I want more people like me to be in the art world. This is layered. I love the art world, but it is so exclusive. A person of means, a person who can afford to have internships and make their way in that art history art pipeline. I want to be one of the voices to say “no, these other people should also be valued.” The things that add joy and value to your life aren't investment banking. I want people who bring humanity back into the world to be valued and compensated just as much as a money-maker (stock broker, hedge fund manager, etc). I want people in these roles--health and fitness, art--to have money knowledge so they can keep doing these things in the world, so they don’t have to leave. To give them the tools that rich white people use who have money to pay people to tell them what to do. I want to do that for people who don't have the background or the pedigree. I want to tell my friend, “don’t put that education on a credit card.” Teaching people how things snowball, and you have to live within your means. Right now, I don’t even need a budget - I pay my bills, then what is left over is what I have. But one day, I want to save more. The financial help I read in magazines doesn’t help you if you don’t have money to begin with. 

There is a huge amount of the population that lives like that--a dog chasing its own tail. But how do you get more money? How do you get it in your hands, and then what do you do with it? And how is it taxed?

I feel like I can speak to those people who are like me.

Artist/Mother Podcast with Hannah Cole of Sunlight Tax

Interview with Kaylan Buteyn about Hannah’s art journey and financial tips for creative people

Hannah talks with Kaylan about when she started out as an artist, her life as an artist, and how her career progressed to a tax expert specializing in helping artists and other creative freelancers. She talks about her career in accounting and what experiences led to her decision to start her own company.

Other topics covered in this hour-long podcast are the factors involved in choosing a type of business and how getting your finances organized gives you more room for creative work.

Understanding where your money is going and getting your finances organized give you more head space, more time to spend on other things, a clearer vision for your practice. They discuss how women are taught differently about money than men and money shame and breaking down stereotypes. Hannah shares some empowering advice for anyone feeling down. Her mission is to help artists feel more organized and in control of their own money.

Hannah also covers the basics in bookkeeping and profitability to get your business moving forward and how to get into the habit of tracking your finances.

Hannah will be available via zoom on the Artist/Mother network for a live Q&A to answer any lingering questions you have on March 16th, 3:00pm ET.

Click here to listen to the podcast.

The Artist/Mother podcast is created and hosted by Kaylan Buteyn. You can see more of Kaylan’s work on her website or connect with her on Instagram @kaylanbuteyn