Does Anyone Make a Living Doing Public Art? A Money Story with Liz LaManche

Liz LaManche (she/they) is an artist on a mission to add more color and fun to the world through big art in public places and small art in weird places.

Hannah Cole: Tell me about what brought you to a place where you wanted to learn more about taxes and getting your money organized.

Liz LaManche: I spent a bunch of years in software doing UX/UI consulting, so I had practice doing that, and getting decent rates, and doing contract negotiations, so that wasn’t the hard part. The hard part has been figuring out what artists get paid, and all that learning I talked to you about. Being avoidant about money in general. Not wanting to know my budget, not keeping track of receipts, even though at the end of the year I had this big terrible accounting project of tallying all my receipts. 

You’re the first person who has been able to teach me in a calm, accessible way. I had old men accountants who said they would teach me, but then actually just asked for my numbers which they would just enter into their system. When I would ask them questions, they would say, “Just read the instructions on the form.”
The fact that you’re able to realize in a psychological way what is going on with people, gently and realistically, has been really nice.

This was part of a program I set myself where I was intending to get better at the financial thing, and set myself up better. I’m examining, “What are my attitudes? What is keeping me from getting specific? From actually tackling this stuff?” You helped with the specifics--as in, here’s how to do this and that.

I think psychologically, I bounce between overfunctioning and underfunctioning. I can’t deal, and then I bounce back. I have a tendency to want to get everything done perfectly, then I can’t deal anymore. You’ve been very helpful about putting it all in perspective. You say, if you improve one thing, you’re headed in the right direction. It doesn’t need to be all perfect immediately. 

I would go from ignoring my receipts for months, to “I have to enter every 50 cent coffee I ever get into this spreadsheet.”

HC: What did you observe in your transition from consulting work to the art world?

LL: Being up front with clear communication took practice. I got good at writing contracts that were basically in English that people normally speak, but take care of contingencies that both parties actually care about. You need to spell it all out in an understandable way, and to have it covered in a contract. A lot of my artwork is commissions and consulting.

HC: So you really have to use contracts for that. 

LL: Yeah. You have to lay out what is going to be done in this project.

HC: Can you describe your art?

LL: I’m doing public art and murals. I’m also working with an organization that helps cities and towns work on their pedestrian access, safer streets, bikeways, and designing asphalt art. I make artistic crosswalks, intersections, and pathways. I get to use my architecture background, making urban environments more beautiful, and sustaining human beings. It has been helpful coming from being an architecture major. First, you have to figure out what the client wants and needs, and what environment the client is in. Then you design something bespoke to solve those problems and make something that is both beautiful and usable within its environment and neighborhood. 

Business skills have helped a lot in the project work I’m doing. Being able to form a relationship with clients where they feel taken care of, and they are sure I know what I’m doing, because I approach things like a pro, I know what the issues are, and I can get them a solution that works for them. I show up and behave like a professional. People dealing with artists are a bit afraid about that.

HC: Has there been anything particularly helpful that you have learned?

LL: I had some habits that helped me already. I can do math, I had business bank accounts, I can use spreadsheets. But others you helped me a lot with were--I couldn’t face my receipts, and keep a running tally of what was going on. I couldn’t look at my actual financial situation. I would just try to get money coming in and hope that things worked out. Then I would panic if the account balance got too low. 

Following your program, I’ve been able to get a handle on things, know where I’m at, develop some good habits (if not make and stick to an actual plan). Things like getting more methodical about putting money aside, being able to check on it, that sort of thing. Being able to get on top of the quarterly tax thing, and what I should be doing taxwise, has made me a lot happier and calmer. 

HC: That stuff provokes so much anxiety.

LL: It’s just astonishing that no other tax person has gotten me to do quarterlies ever.

HC: I’m so proud

LL: One of the things I’m working on now is trying to learn more about what artists are getting paid, in my field and in others. I want to learn more about what’s realistic. Because there’s so much secrecy around money all the time. That doesn’t serve us well.

I spent some time in circus performance doing aerial dance, and there’s a lot of talk there about “charge what you’re worth” and “don’t undercut others,” and how to get people a living wage.

The same is true in performance. There’s the thing or service you’re selling, and then there’s the years of work and study that made you good at doing that thing. There's more overhead than people expect.

I would love for art to be a sustainable thing for more people. Because it's such an important thing for our culture, and for being able to sustain ourselves as a society.

There’s awe and beauty--those uplifting feelings. In public art, too - you’re getting beautiful things out to people who are just getting through their day, in what would otherwise be a dull streetscape. It might make their day better.

I’ve heard about people quoting extremely low rates, basically doing things for free. That’s problematic because it leads to that being the expectation. And there should be a graduated scale based on your experience, and the type of work and that sort of thing. But that’s the question that we run into in circus arts, too. There has to be a place for people to start, but people commissioning work need to realize there’s a difference in the final quality, too.

I’m hoping that there is a tier for professional artists to stay professional and make a career of it.

People look at me as someone who is successful, because I’ve done projects that are known around town. [But I’m still wondering], “Does anyone get a living wage doing public art?”

Money Story - Christopher Denise: Building Habits and Space to Focus on Your Creative Work

Christopher Denise (he/him) is an illustrator, writer, teacher, and lecturer. He has illustrated many critically acclaimed books for young readers including Alison McGhee’s Firefly Hollow, Rosemary Wells’ Following Grandfather, Anne Marie Pace’s Groundhug Day, as well as several in Brian Jacques’s Redwall series. Christopher lives with his wife and collaborator, Anika Denise, and their family on the coast of Rhode Island.

HC: Who are you, what are your pronouns, and what do you do?

CD: My name is Christopher Denise, my pronouns are him/his and I am an illustrator in primarily kids’ literature, and an educator. I teach in various programs. I have taught at RISD, in undergrad illustration, where I also attended, and recently in a Master’s program at Holland’s University. This Fall I am teaching at Montserrat College of Art.

HC: How did you get into the world of illustrating?

CD: I had been studying archeology and art history at St. Lawrence University. That led to studio classes and a greater interest in making my own imagery. Around that time I visited my brother at Rhode Island School of Design and found that the level of conversation there was completely different. I applied as a transfer student initially into the architecture department because I had no idea what an illustrator was. But when I got to RISD, I started taking illustration classes, and it was really satisfying. I liked telling stories with images, not particularly for kid lit [kid’s literature]—I just liked being a visual communicator. In my junior year I started freelancing, creating work for newspapers and educational publishers (textbooks). After graduation some of those images caught the attention of an editor in New York. 

HC: That’s a big lucky break. Can you explain more how you got in front of that critical editor?

CD: I did promotion. I sent out mailings and dropped off my portfolio at various publishers. I was very fortunate, because I ended up working with this editor for years.

Our first book together was The Fool of The World and the Flying Ship. That was a breakthrough moment. It was daunting, because the illustrator who had created a version of the story a few years prior had won a Caldecott Award. My version also got a good amount of attention. It got  starred reviews. I did interviews and book signings. But it didn’t sell many copies. The upside of good press but not a lot of sales was that was it allowed me to continue to work in “relative obscurity.” If The Fool of the World had been a huge financial success, and I had felt compelled to reproduce it, it could have been disastrous. Creative endeavors are challenging, but when they change because of the financial piece, it can change your relationship with the creative process. If you’re not connected with the work, but you’re making money, that can be challenging. 

HC: For a lot of creative people with amazing careers like yours, there is a Critical Moment. Can you talk more about how that happened for you?

CD: A part of it was luck, which is always nice. But I was ready. I was ready to take advantage of that opportunity. I had developed a practice and a discipline, so when opportunity arose, I could capitalize on it. I diversified my workflow so I could take on a project that was more time-consuming and less profitable. [It allowed me to] Be ready for an interesting opportunity. 

That led to me being introduced to Brian Jacques, the author of the Redwall series. He wrote a picture book for me to illustrate. It offered me another chance to grow my work artistically. 

In regard to the financial part—I was being paid more, so [ironically] I paid less attention to the business side of things. I was single, with no family, so I could do that. One thing I did do, against the advice of some family members, was invest in buying a house, which turned out to be a good decision. But I was working all the time and lacked balance. 

Having a successful career in the arts is not a static goal. It’s not something that you “achieve.” You develop a practice. Something that Sunlight Tax articles and Money Bootcamp talks have highlighted that resonated with me is that getting on top of your money is also a practice. Financial literacy is not just a tool that fixes things, it is a structure. My Uncle Frank used to tell this joke, “I bought this trunk organizer. I threw it the trunk two weeks ago, and damn if I looked in there yesterday, and this whole thing is still a mess.” So, in other words, you have to actively apply sound financial practices to your creative life. 

A practice builds empowerment, and as a result, freedom. Who doesn’t want freedom in their life? It allows time to focus on what gives you purpose in life. That looks like many things: a chance to support causes and people you believe in, a chance to spend more time with friends and family, and a chance to produce non-commercial work.

A career in Illustration is not a sprint, but a marathon. You need a structure. You need to a map that breaks the steps in the journey down so you know what to do, and when. It makes everything feel a lot more achievable. And it helps you get back on track if you go off in the weeds.

In the past, I would approach my project and finances without the map—I would barrel into the work and block out the rest of my life. I would get paid, and then retire all my debt. That felt great for about a week after I had finished. But that was fleeting, because new bills would arise, and a new cycle would start again. This led to both artistic and financial burnout.

HC: Something I see in so many of my Money Bootcamp members is that one of the key things that money allows is the space to rest. Can you talk about this idea of hustle vs. rest?

CD: A family will force you to take breaks from work! I’m married to a writer, so we do a lot of balancing. In the past I felt as though if I was not working, I was not working at being paid. That was frightening, because projects were long, and there was no sense of where I was financially. 

Now that I have more structure, I feel more comfortable taking some time off. I’ve become more efficient. When I get to the studio it’s “go time.” I know why I’m there, and what I'm supposed to be working on. I allow for mistakes. I can do that because I have a production schedule.

I have a few friends who are 8-10 years my senior, and are top-level character designs for animation. They warned me about burnout and that definitely caused me to pump the brakes a bit. I love illustration too much to let that happen. Nevertheless, I made some bad decisions, like passing up a trip to go back to Ireland to visit with family friends because I was on a deadline. When we had kids, I didn't want to miss that time. So much so that I took some capital from a book that did well, and built a studio here on my property, so I could be around. That allowed me more time with the kids but also forced me to really structure and balance my time.

So much of the world now [because of Covid and working from home] is getting a glimpse into that kind of balance.

Now when I’m having a good painting day, when there is flow, I’m ready. It’s a funny thing though—everyone develops their own studio practice. In the past, if someone said, “you have to do it this way,” there’s a pretty good chance I wouldn’t do it. But if they engage me and ask, “Here’s a project, how do you want to approach it?” then I’m all in. I’m independent or maybe just stubborn!

HC: A lot of creative worlds have their own unique and unspoken assumptions. Grant Conversano, a filmmaker in Money Bootcamp, was describing in a recent interview the unspoken codes they felt in the filmmaking world. Are there codes like this in the illustrating world?

CD: Yes. That you should get an agent. That’s how you get better contracts and get seen. I did not take that route for fifteen years of my career. I met independently with publishers and negotiated my own contracts. This was helpful in some ways—I knew what I was getting into.
It used to be that you sent out postcards, got in touch with people, and dropped off your portfolio. That aspect of the business is so different now. Within an afternoon you can get your website up and running and out there. Because of that, the market is flooded. There are so many people with so much fantastic work. This has democratized things, which is great. In the past, you had to be able to print postcards, have a decent-looking professional portfolio, and get yourself to New York City on a regular basis. That’s all changed now. 

I’ve found that in today’s publishing market, it is helpful having an agent. It allows me to focus more on the creative part, and less on the hustle. Anika (my wife and collaborator) and I share the same agent. Our relationship with our agent Emily Van Beek at Folio is a partnership and friendship. We know from experience that we’re in good hands, and that she’s got our back. She vets projects before they come to me. It helps.

HC: Do you have any advice for a young illustrator starting out?

CD: Instagram is amazing to get your work seen. My general advice is not that different [from how it would have been when I started]. Show work that you are excited about. Work that you’d be excited to do. Don’t show your potential clients what you think they will like, especially if you didn’t like doing it. Be true to your work and eventually you will find an audience. I’ve seen it happen. 

On the business side, besides showing work you can stand behind, there is a question that I always ask my students, “What is the one factor that might inhibit your Illustration career?”

When I ask my students, I get many answers. But the real answer is debt. Debt will keep you from taking those jobs that might pay less but be really good for your work. Debt can lock you in a place of fear and anxiety. It literally shuts down your creative side. I also talk about sleep.

HC: Amen! I thought is was all about money, and now I realize it’s about rest.

CD: Over the past few years I have become fascinated with neuroscience, creativity, and sleep. I want to make the most out of my time, and out of my life. Having a good work-life balance, running, exercising, getting enough rest, etc. is all good for my creative process. 

It was Ariana Huffington’s book on sleep that really got me thinking about this. She’s an amazing thinker and aggregator of information. She had gotten to the point where she’d convinced herself that she could exist as a creative person on four hours sleep a night, and it brought her to a breaking point-literally. She turned her focus to assessing her habits and where they’d gotten her, and wound up creating an amazing book. Another great resource, not on sleep specifically, but on creativity and finding stillness is David Lynch’s Catching the Big Fish. The audio edition is brilliant.

Teaching also helps me find balance by changing my headspace. That’s actually why I teach. Financially, teaching is not a big part of it, but in teaching you are learning. You have to approach someone else's artwork from a different perspective. Every time I teach, I come back to the studio a better artist for the experience. In fact, I just saw a quote pop into my inbox this morning from Gretchen Rubin quoting Octavia Butler “as habit is more dependable, continued learning is more dependable than talent.”

HC: Christopher, this has been wonderful. Thanks for sharing so much about your journey. It’s inspiring to hear the whole arc of it, and how you would advise a younger person in your field. Is there anything you have coming up that you want to share with everyone?

CD: Thank you. I have a book coming out in March. I’ve illustrated over 25 books, but this is the first one I've written and illustrated. It’s called Knight Owl. 

An Audit Nightmare Turned Artist Victory: An Interview With Susan Crile

This article originally appeared in ArtFCity on 12/15/16. Updated 7/22/2021.

American businesses sometimes lose money. Those losses actually create a tax shelter for other income. While the tax code explicitly provides this incentive for businesses – to encourage investment for growth, and to allow for unpredictable events – losses that go on for too long tend to draw scrutiny from the IRS.

If your arts practice loses money for more than a couple years, they may question the legitimacy of the business – specifically, the profit motive. Typically, they reclassify such a business as a hobby, and disallow the artist from expensing deductions past the point of their income from the activity. That’s bad news for any artist, but it was a near nightmare scenario for artist Susan Crile.

Crile spent eight years in tax court (from 2005-2013), defending her right to take losses. She is an accomplished artist by any measure. She has had over 50 one-person exhibitions, and her work is represented in dozens of museum collections, including the Guggenheim, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Hirshhorn, and the Cleveland Museum of Art. She is also a tenured professor of art at Hunter College.

However, despite this decades-long professional history, the IRS threatened to reclassify her art as a hobby, disallow her losses, and force her to pay over $200,000. In the end, Susan Crile won on the question of being considered a professional artist, and the precedent that her case set is that her day job was clearly judged to be a separate profession—not the reason for her art. But the judge did not rule on the allowability of her large deductions—that piece was sent to a settlement, and not all of the deductions were allowed.

In this interview, we discuss how she proved her case, what it took, and what she recommends for artists in a similar position.

Hannah Cole: First I wanted to thank you for putting yourself through what you have. You set a precedent that really helps other artists.

Susan Crile: I’m still recovering from it! I was very lucky that the law firm Cravath Swaine & Moore took it on pro bono, but my accounting was not taken care of pro bono. So I’m still getting my feet back from that.

HC: How did the audit start? I assume you got a letter in the mail and I want to know what went through your mind. (PSA to readers: an IRS audit always begins with a notice in the mail. If you receive a phone call announcing an audit, it is a scam.)

SC: Well I’ve been audited several times over the years and I hadn’t had any problem. I never had to pay anything. But this time it seemed as if there was no reason for it and my accountant [and I] both thought that we should question it. So, it was going in a normal way up the audit chain and suddenly something changed. No one’s been able to figure out what happened. By the time it got to the appeals they had decided that I was a hobbyist, that we had to pay this huge amount [in back taxes, penalties and interest] and had added seven years to the audit.

Early on it wasn’t a huge amount disputed—about ten thousand [dollars] in deductions.

HC: Wow. For the readers’ information, both hobbyists and professional artists must report all income, but in the years of her audit, a hobbyist could deduct expenses up to the amount of their hobby income. A professional artist, in business to make a profit, could then and can still claim expenses beyond income. In other words, they can claim a loss. Please note: in 2018, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act changed the rules for hobbyists, so that as of 2018, hobbyists may no longer deduct any expenses at all. The rules for business deductions remain unchanged.

SC: So I think there were two things that made them decide to [expand and shift the focus of the audit]  First, I think that they were probably looking for someone to use as a test case.

HC: That’s my suspicion as well.

SC: Second, my deductions were high and my income was very variable year-to-year. I also had a full-time teaching job. There were a lot of variables in there, and if they could get me, they could get a lot of people, all of whom would be omitted from taking deductions.

HC: This would allow the IRS to classify all similarly situated artists as “hobbyists,” and therefore not entitled to take a loss.

SC:  Yes. The IRS kept changing why they were taking this route. By the time the law firm Cravath Swaine and Moore came in, they were not interested in settling at all. The first thing Cravath Swaine and Moore did was send them about a thousand pages of backup. This was five years before the judgement.

HC: That’s amazing.

SC: So the audit started in 2004 or 5 went to trial in 2013 maybe ended in 2014.

HC: So how were you feeling when all of this went down? It doesn’t sound like the initial audit letter was that much of a shock.

SC: No. For the first year there was nothing about it that was really terrible. But when they started adding on years and the numbers of what I was going to owe started getting revised up I got scared. They weren’t going to allow me any deductions at all [beyond SC’s art income]. Then I would have been subject to The Alternative Minimum Tax.

HC: This tax was intended to ensure that high-income taxpayers, who may be savvy about maximizing deductions, pay at least a certain amount of tax.

SC: It began to look really onerous. At that point I went to Cravath Swaine and Moore. I knew one of the partners very well.They decided to take it on pro bono. It was just luck that I was able to be in that position.

HC: Wow, that’s amazing. I’m curious to know what you learned going through that experience?

SC: I don’t think anyone should get tangled up with the IRS if they don’t have to, for one. You get mauled. And unless you’ve got really really good backing and coverage, it’s really hard.

HC: Can you explain what backing and coverage means? It seems useful to mention here that the IRS uses nine points to determine whether a person incurring losses in their business has a profit motive. The profit motive is the key factor that determines the legitimacy of a business in the eyes of the IRS, and having one entitles the business to incur losses. Otherwise, the activity is deemed a hobby, and losses are disallowed.

SC: You have to have a really good accountant who knows and understands the law. The nine points are not just about demonstrating a profit alone. It is a preponderance of points and a lot of them relate to how you run your business.

HC: Right, they are given different amounts of weight in the judgement. Like the fact that you hired a professional bookkeeper, an accountant, and someone to digitize your inventory for a few big years, all play into the point about the expertise of the taxpayer and his advisors. You wouldn’t hire those people if you were a hobbyist.

SC: Yes. You have to have records and proof. Letters you’ve written trying to contact curators and museums, or trying to get gallery representation. I had to go through my date book and annotate everything I took for a deduction and why it was valid. If people get into the habit of good record-keeping and note-taking, they’re probably not going to have a problem.

Fortunately, I had decided early on that I wanted to know where my artwork was, so I have kept track of it. A lot of people I know don’t. Even when we went through [it], my sales were a lot more than what they said they were. We only could count those that I have proof of.

HC: That really puts a fine point on it.

SC: It took a huge amount of time out of my life. I mean, having to substantiate every move you’ve made for seven years. That, and I had to basically go through and count the amount of work I’ve made. I had to inventory everything…I had to dig up stuff from storage and boxes of stuff. In terms of figuring out sales, I had to go back forty years on every single thing I had ever done.

HC: Wow. That’s really incredible.

SC: It’s much harder for me, too, because I can’t do everything electronically. I’m older and not absolutely terrific with all the electronic stuff.

HC: It’s interesting that you say that because you are proof that the old-fashioned way is just fine if that works for you.

SC: Did you read the trial? Because they brought in this woman as their expert — Elizabeth von Habsburg, who tried to claim that I had no records because I had not gone electronic with everything.

HC: Right and she was an IRS expert witness, the managing director of Winston Art Group, who was brought in to testify regarding the art market and art appraisal.

SC: A good part of my  work had been digitalized, not just 1980-85.  Most everything from 1980 on has been digitalized, but my work goes back to 1965.

She was trying to say that because I hadn’t gotten everything digitally [catalogued] that I was an amateur. We have these boxes that I had had from the earlier time that had listed on them what I sold and to whom. It was a different form of doing it, but I had it.

I had an appraiser come in and take a look at my work in the country and what I have done here in New York. We came out very well on that because I have things wrapped properly and indicated on the back what the work was, and where it had been shown.

HC: The Hobby Loss Rule says that so long as you make a profit in three out of five years, you are presumed to be in business with an intent to make a profit. If not, you are presumed to be conducting a hobby.

SC: So you’re actually innocent until proven guilty, but they act as though you’re guilty until proven innocent.

HC: It’s a question of onus. When you make a profit in three out of five years, the onus is on the IRS to prove that you don’t have a profit motive. But the issue that arises when you run losses for more than three out of five years is that you are presumed to not have a profit, and you have to prove that you do. So that is written in The Internal Revenue Code.

SC: They act as if you are absolutely wrong, as opposed to acting on the assumption that you can give them evidence that you are not. That was the sense that I got all the way along. That they were cut hard and dry that the law is if you don’t have [profit] three out five years then you are wrong, and you owe us.

HC: An artist running losses is in the position of threading that needle. You have to say here are my losses, but here’s the case law that says that that doesn’t disprove my profit motive.

SC: And I think that most people who come up against the IRS don’t know that. They are intimidated by it.

HC: It’s my experience that sometimes the auditors don’t know what the law actually says, and that the person being audited ends up in the position of having to educate the auditors about the case law.

SC: That’s hard for me to have an opinion about because I left it entirely to my accountant. I didn’t go to the audit. What I heard from my accountant was pretty shocking. At one point one of the auditors said “I have art books on my coffee table and I can’t take them as a deduction, why should she?”

HC: Wow.

SC: I mean, please. Don’t you have accounting books or tax law books? I think one of the real problems is that there’s a lot of cultural envy. In an odd kind of way they feel that we’re getting away with something.

It’s complicated too because so much of what we do in our lives is potentially deductible. That came up in the trial in the final deliberations with the judge who felt that that there had to be some demarcation points. He sent us back to negotiate on what deductions were viable, and what were not. Not that I wasn’t an artist in it for profit, but were all these deductions correct.

HC: Has the settlement part been decided?

SC: That was decided, and it took a year and three months. We only used one year as a model and applied it to the rest. At the onset of this seven years, with penalties and interest, and taking out every single deduction, it could have been over $200,000 that I owed. 

HC: Oh my goodness.

SC: During the negotiations, the IRS examiners offered to give me only 10% of my deductions—as though the trial had never happened! My lawyer was just fantastic. She had the patience of Job, and she just wore them down. And in the end, we got close to 85% of my deductions. It should have been a lot higher but we had to compromise at some point. [The IRS] just did not want to budge an inch on anything. We just let go of certain categories they had problems with.

HC: What about the day job aspect of the trial? Because even in the era of Churchman v Commissioner (who ran loses as an artist for 20 years and won her case) they were trying to prove that if you had a day job the fact that you weren’t living off of your art meant that you didn’t have a true profit motive. But what your trial proved, in my understanding, is that the day job does not invalidate the legitimacy of your arts practice.

SC: That was a huge piece of it. The IRS started with a hobbyist routine and when they found out that I had this massive amount of stuff — that I actually have exhibitions, I have sales, I had excellent reviews, they weren’t willing to back down and say, “ok she is in it as a business to make a profit.” They just switched, and said “okay, the only reason she is showing her work and trying to have it exhibited to keep her job as a professor”. Which is totally ludicrous. I had already been tenured and was a full Professor by 1995. It hard to fire a teacher with that status. That was not a very strong argument for the IRS. The judge wrote that this would invalidate so many areas for people who teach and was explicit in his rejection of this argument.

HC: For sure. I know a lot of artists who are serious professional artists working very hard, but running losses more than the three out of five years.

SC: You are in the position of having to educate your clients.

HC: Yes, I mean it’s one thing to think of an audit in very theoretical-someday-low-possibility terms and be running your practice. But when you realize the kind of thin ice you’re walking on if you’re taking losses, and you realize your entire defense is based on that record keeping, it definitely shores up your resolve to keep it as professionally as you’re able.  Do you think that it was all worth it?

SC: It’s worth it if it helps other people.

HC: Are there any last words that you would want to leave other people in the art world with?

SC: I think we all have to make sure that artists can continue to take deductions [including to the point of losses], because the art world is mimicking the real world – there’s the billionaires and the rest of us. The only way in which we can continue to be able to work is if we are also able to take losses.

DISCLAIMER: True tax advice is a two-way conversation, and your accountant needs to hear your full situation to apply the rules correctly in your case. This post is meant for general information only. Please don’t act on this alone.

Hannah Cole is an artist and Enrolled Agent. She is the founder of Sunlight Tax.

Money Story: Grant Conversano: Invisible backstories, peer influence, and betting on yourself.

Grant Conversano (they/them) is a filmmaker. They graduated the UNC School of the Arts in film, and started Apple House Pictures with their brother, Adam Conversano. They currently live in New York City.

Hannah Cole: Who are you, what are your pronouns, and what do you do?

Grant Conversano: I’m Grant Conversano, I use they/he pronouns. My brother and I are filmmakers, from Concord NC, and I went to UNC School of the Arts in filmmaking. I’m living in Brooklyn with my brother, and we run a small production company. We produce commercials, documentaries, music videos and write our own creative projects and features. We recently wrapped commercial content for Andrew Yang’s mayoral campaign.

HC: What brought you to a place where you wanted to learn how to get your money stuff together?

GC: Before the pandemic, I had only anecdotal knowledge how to be a freelancer after art school. I only knew the basics from friends just out of school. Really, if I’m doing what they are doing, that’s fine, living paycheck to paycheck, scrambling, getting 1099s together at the end of the year.

I remember thinking “Oh I got a big tax refund,” like that’s a positive. But I remember that you said this, “if you don’t trust yourself with money all year long, then getting a refund is a way to save. But that is something to look at.”

During the pandemic, I was unemployed, and I needed to get income. Freelancers were newly eligible for unemployment. Stimulus checks were coming, and I knew I needed to get in the system as fast a s possible to keep things going. It was unclear how to do this. The tax code was changing, there was new money from the government, all on top of just entering my mid-20s. I went to Google, we found your website and we went from there.

My desire to get into your program was realizing how much the world was changing,I’m in my mid 20s, and I’m starting to look at the scope of life.

HC: Can you tell us about where you are coming from in your money story?

GC: We had a turbulent upbringing. Our father was a lifelong alcoholic, and had trouble holding down a job despite having a master’s degree. He has a lot of social mobility on one hand, but mixed with addiction, that really rocked our family for many years. The last job I remember him having, I was nearing the end of high school. He didn’t have a job the entire time I was in college. My mom was the single income of our family while there were a lot of student loans being taken out in my name. My brother followed behind. I didn’t have a sense of the implications of taking out loans to go to art school. I was young--17. In 2013, no one discussed what that meant. No one discussed that we might be signing up for a lifetime of debt.

My parents wanted the best for us. But getting out of school, the reality of student loans, the pressure of moving to a city like New York or LA, the class barriers became apparent very clearly. In school they were masked to a degree. I thought I was doing all the right things--taking internships at very prestigious places, being an assistant to people I have learned a lot from in the industry. It was absolutely unsustainable--I was incurring credit card debt on top of that. It caught up with me quickly because I wasn’t making enough to live on--close to nothing for people in the industry, even though it seems like that was what I was expected to do. All the signals said, “keep going down this road,” but at a certain point, the numbers weren’t working.

I read a book by the Duplass brothers. It was honest and practical in terms of life story, money, housing, what you really need to be thinking about. They are talking about film, but really life in any creative pursuit. How long it took--they couldn’t always be in the most expensive place--that isn’t what made their careers. Sometimes they were on the outskirts.

I moved back to North Carolina, my brother and I moved in together, a year before the pandemic. We talked about building something together - we were getting signals that we were making a mistake, doing the wrong thing to stay in North Carolina. But then the pandemic came along, and it felt like it really was the right decision. We would rather bet on ourselves than bet on the approval of some institution. 

People really realized during the pandemic that they had to retreat and fend for themselves. It became clear who had bigger safety nets than others. We were still very fortunate to a relative degree. But the illusion that we are all in this together cracked.

We started building from there. Working from home, editing for other people, building up a portfolio, getting clients for ourselves. My brother dropped out of college and we started working. We started our own production company.

A lot of people in their 20s get a bunch of roommates and make that work. I didn’t want to do that anymore. There aren’t many boundaries between our work and life - we live together and work all the time.  

HC: What have you learned from this experience?

GC: Reading about business in general, treating this work as work, and knowing it is a business, and that we need contracts. Knowing we need a system, and truthfully letting go of naive ideas we indulged in art school of the purity of film. It’s an expensive art form at its best, and most of the time you’re working with a lot of people. You need to have boundaries set in place to navigate that. Taking the business side of every job seriously. That was a choice at a certain point.

HC: Have you had any revelations?

GC: For the majority of us, our sense of self and of money is so wrapped up. It took a lot of work--therapy, and taking your course. They echoed each other. You have to take responsibility for your own life, actions, choices. At what age do I stop blaming my parents and take responsibility for myself? Not using the idea of being an artist as a defense in the tax code. As though knowing about taxes would make me less of an artist.

I think a part of it is our culture. The mega-successful artists - the image that is put out there is that they don’t talk about the other things. It penetrates some illusion that people arrived at all this success on their own, and without business savvy or skills. But if you peek behind any story of how someone made it somewhere, there was a lot of help involved. Do people publicly acknowledge that? Or do they let people believe they magically arrived there?

I think even for instance, I did get into investing before all this. I naively downloaded Robinhood. I wasn’t putting serious money into it, but was interested in understanding investments. The Gamestop moment was really interesting. Part of me was like, whoa, what if I put more money in? I know that is about as close to gambling as you're  going to get. Building for sustainability is an important transition I’m making. Your course on long term investment strategies was helpful in thinking in decades, not just in moments. 

It’s weird because, ultimately, you just gotta put your faith somewhere. There’s a lot--it’s not clear what’s going to happen next. 

Everyone’s story is different even if you think your peers and you are in the same world, the same school, the same party. Everyone is different. Everyone is coming from a different place. Most of my life, most people didn’t know about the alcohol or dysfunction in our life. That just looked like “I’m not eating lunch today.” Trying to fake it because of the insecurity. Owning that. Owning, “well, this is the insecurity, and we’re just starting here.” I’m actually taking steps from where I come from, and that can be true for anybody. Owning where you’re at without shame. This is where I’m starting from.

I had to get over whatever shame I had about money to even call you. That was a big step--asking for help. And that is usually when things start to look better. It’s like, “Hey, I have Google, I’m not alone, I can see what happens.”

Having the gumption to push past certain fear. Some people can walk back to their parents’ house, and we couldn't. So we were just like, “I guess I’m just gonna plow ahead.”

Nicole Espaillat: A money story of debt, yoga, and buying a house.

Nicole Espaillat

has an art history degree, 10 years of experience working in the art world, and is now a full time yoga instructor who is going back to school for accounting. She is learning to do taxes at Sunlight Tax. Nicole generously agreed to share her personal money story: She went from $100,000 in debt and living on food stamps to owning her own home and getting her money under control. Now she is learning accounting, so that she can teach money skills to people like her.

Hannah: So Nicole, tell us the basics.

My pronouns are she/her, I’m based out of Baltimore, MD for the last four years.  I am working on finishing my degree in accounting--that’s my quarantine “baking bread” project. It’s a long haul project, but I went back to school officially during quarantine. I am an area manager for Core Power Yoga - that is my nine to five. I also teach yoga at a couple mom and pop local studios. I also do bookkeeping for an outspoken artist collective in Baltimore: NomuNomu.

I have been doing art since I was eighteen--my first job was in an art museum. It was the only thing I knew--the dysfunctional world of art. I moved to Baltimore after the Trump election. I was searching for a place that is more authentic. I ended up working at Hamiltonian Artists in DC. That’s half an art Foundation and half gallery--they award grants to ten artists for two years for mid-career/emerging artists after they graduate. They teach how to set up an exhibition , how to make a catalog, all the things. 

I met you because we hired you to give a Taxes for Artists talk at Hamiltonian. Of all the things we did for artists there, this was the one I felt was the most impactful. Everything you were saying--it blew my mind that these are the things you need to succeed in the world--and it feels like a byproduct of this system that makes finances and money difficult to grasp--as if it’s actually on purpose, and people are in the dark. I loved how you broke it down for everyone. I kept seeing all these light bulbs going off for people. I sent you an email after your talk and told you that I wanted to do what you do.

I ended up leaving Hamiltonian Artists to be a full time yoga teacher. At that point, I was able to live off of credit. Up until then, i was making money, and I was able to rack up credit card bills but pay them off. I didn’t feel the full burden of it all until I left my job making good money, and went to yoga, making $300/4400 every two weeks as a yoga teacher. I was making a little more than minimum wage, but my take home pay was about $200 a week. 

I had to get on Medicaid and food stamps. I had to live off the system. I have a degree, I was born in this country, I speak English--all these things are to my advantage. I grew up in a first generation household. We were poor, but we had what we needed. This was the first time in my life I was broke.  I didn’t know how I would eat. I would go to the grocery store and get rice and tuna. That was very very hard. 

I eventually got promoted to be the assistant at the yoga studio. My pay checks went from $350 every two weeks to $600 every two weeks. It was a little more, but even so, I couldn’t do anything. I was trapped. I couldn’t pay the interest on my credit cards. I was rock bottom financially. I was in $35,000-$40,000 of credit card debt. That was due to trying to keep up with the Joneses. Yoga teacher training is cost prohibitive--yoga teachers usually come from privilege. You can’t make that little money and pay that teacher training off.

On these credit cards, the interest was high--I had about five rotating cards. I maxed them out until I couldn’t pay them. Each card was $500-600 month in just interest payments. This didn’t include rent or car, etc. I got some help from my mother, but it was like, “you need to get another job.”

I was in a bad place financially. It took a huge toll on my mental health. I was getting up at 4 am, working all day, teaching all day. Yoga teachers make about $20 per class. I was making $10.75/hour, and this was before taxes were taken out. 

It took a huge toll on every part of my life--I couldn’t see my friends, and any bit of money I had went to pay off these credit cards. What finally shifted things was Covid. For the first time in my life I was able to get assistance on my bills because of relief help. I got into a debt management program. Not debt consolidation. This company literally just takes over your payments. I can’t use them/touch them or open new lines of credit. They are like, “you can’t do this on your own, we are going to do it.” They cut it all off. That was step one--getting the credit card under control. This was just before quarantine. The deal was $800/month in credit card payments. They handled distribution, negotiated all the credit down to like 4% from the 20%. My payment was now $800 per month instead of $3000. 

But I still wasn’t making a lot of money. I was picking up side gigs. I was selling my plasma, taking side gigs, getting two hours of sleep per night. 

Hannah: That sounds exhausting.

Quarantine happened. I was able to negotiate no rent payments. My building was not up to code, so my rent was covered. I was able to catch up with stimulus payments and grants. I wrote myself grants - I took that skill I have from my art world training. I got money for that. In March I got laid off from my job. I was able to collect unemployment. For the first time in a couple years, I was making 3-4 times more than I was making before. That saved my life--making more money.

That changed it all. At the end of the day, the only thing that was going to get me out of the hole was making more money.

I negotiated half a car payment. So I had a car payment of $600, credit card payment of $800, rent payment of $1000, and this is just covering transportation, home and debt. It doesn’t cover my student loan, consolidation loan, nothing. I was negative almost $100,000 in my life in October 2019, making $300 per week. And that’s with a college degree. 

I was talking to my mom like, “how do you get ahead in this country?” The only way I could do it was help. I got help from the government. It caught me back up.

I know that Covid was really hard for a lot of people. But for me that had nothing to my name, getting stimulus, unemployment, and having the companies I owed money to slightly sympathetic to my situation--I was able to slowly slowly catch up. Meanwhile we’re going through this social revolution,  the end of a crazy presidency, George Floyd, those conversations, and in the fitness world, there were conversations about equity issues there. I was able to go back to work for double the pay I had been making. They basically matched unemployment. [Because of conversations about equitable pay in the yoga/fitness industry].

This was a big pay bump--a liveable wage. Now I was getting $1000 per paycheck, up from $300 the year previous. All this debt, the debt management program, I get financial relief--it helped me breathe again. 

 And we have a good friend of the family, who has no kids or grandkids. I call her my fairy godmother. She decided she wanted to buy me a house. She gave me $100,000 to buy a house. I wasn’t allowed to use it to pay off debt, or anything else. I live in Baltimore, where that can buy you a place. I put in an offer on a small lovely condo.

When it rains it pours. With a lot of luck--I was lucky that in my field there was a revolution about pay and compensation.. At the end of last year, I got promoted to be the manager of it all--my company and the region. I now make a bigger salary than I had in DC. I was also able to get grants for going back to school. A lot of things fell into place. After a lot of hard work and suffering, and only with a huge support system.

Hannah: So where are you today?

In October 2015, I had $100,000 in debt. Today, I have $45/50,000 in debt plus the asset of a home. Now that I know what I know, I wish I didn’t have to go through those things. This is why I love Sunlight Tax. So much of what we know about money is programmed subconsciously. Now I can pick up bookkeeping work. That has also helped. My mental health is better. I can feed me and my dog--I can now go to the grocery store and buy what I need.

Hannah: So what do you tell your friends now?

I tell people don’t get into credit card debt. You can maybe make the minimum payment, but when you have a whole college degree of debt on your credit card, you are going to screw yourself over. You are not going to catch up.

I am so over financial institutions. I tell everyone get a credit union at least. I love that they pick up the phone. They have the best interest rates. It’s like a co-op - you have say and control in what they put their money into. That helps a lot.

Living above your means is so tempting, especially when you’re young, and you want to do the same thing your investment banker friends do. It doesn’t help either that I’m from Miami. Everyone there is in so much debt. The average income there is $35,000. They have a fancy car, designer shoes, go out to fancy meals, buy $600 vodka at the club. 

It’s insane how much I had to struggle just to get to this point right here. Still with debt. But hopefully in about a year, that will be gone.

It was all help. I finally got help. You can have universal income, you can have free healthcare. The government just chooses not to.

Any extra money I get goes to my credit cards. Then my student loans.

“Buy in bulk” doesn’t help when you don’t have the money to buy even one roll of toilet paper. It costs you so much money to be poor. A bank can tell you you can’t get a house because you can’t afford the $800 mortgage payment, but they turn around and expect you to pay $1600 in rent. They just don’t value people - if they did, this behavior doesn’t make sense.

Just to exist in the world, there is a cost to live. Just to live in a house. Doing taxes, you see how many deductions and exemptions and credits you can get from owning a house - but only if you can get from this point. No 28 year old is just buying a house.. Especially with a 20% down payment.

I’m frustrated with the way the world is. It has been so hard for me, I can’t even imagine how hard it is for people who don’t speak English, or have all these benefits.

I can’t believe how hard it is to apply for benefits. I nearly gave up because it felt impossible. I had to get signatures from 10 landlords. It was a very demoralizing/dehumanizing experience. You have to tell everyone around you that you’re applying for food stamps. It’s really hard. And I live in an easy state - Florida, I have friends who can’t even get the unemployment they are owed. For people who have never had it hard, they just don’t get it. If I had kids - I don’t even know what I would do.

I want more people like me to be in the art world. This is layered. I love the art world, but it is so exclusive. A person of means, a person who can afford to have internships and make their way in that art history art pipeline. I want to be one of the voices to say “no, these other people should also be valued.” The things that add joy and value to your life aren't investment banking. I want people who bring humanity back into the world to be valued and compensated just as much as a money-maker (stock broker, hedge fund manager, etc). I want people in these roles--health and fitness, art--to have money knowledge so they can keep doing these things in the world, so they don’t have to leave. To give them the tools that rich white people use who have money to pay people to tell them what to do. I want to do that for people who don't have the background or the pedigree. I want to tell my friend, “don’t put that education on a credit card.” Teaching people how things snowball, and you have to live within your means. Right now, I don’t even need a budget - I pay my bills, then what is left over is what I have. But one day, I want to save more. The financial help I read in magazines doesn’t help you if you don’t have money to begin with. 

There is a huge amount of the population that lives like that--a dog chasing its own tail. But how do you get more money? How do you get it in your hands, and then what do you do with it? And how is it taxed?

I feel like I can speak to those people who are like me.